Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

If you don't know how it's done: Here it says!
Post Reply
gilius
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:12 pm
x 10
x 45

Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by gilius » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:45 pm

Am currently working on producing a Lite WOA image for Rpi3 B+ and Lumia 950 XL using NTLite software for the purpose of reducing the installation size and freeing up CPU/RAM resources for a faster desktop experience - with x86 WOW emulation in mind, in particular.

Does anyone have any requests/suggestions?

I am looking at grouping different requirements into a number of different images, potentially, based on any important deciding factors:

Windows Store apps: Personally, I see no use for them as Microsoft could never keep up with iOS or Android in terms of releasing anything useful. However, since WOA lacks amd64 compatibility some users may feel pressure to seek working apps in the official store - only to find it unreliable with amateurish content. Which app(s) have you discovered in the store that you simply cannot live without? Would loss of the store be a deal breaker for you? On the Lumia 950XL there is the WOADialer app, which is particularly fussy and will break before all other apps if certain dependent apps are removed or a particular service disabled that other apps do not require (only WOADialer). Chat (sms) and People (contacts) are the two other cellular based UWP apps that would also be stripped out. Since future versions of Win10 no longer supports cellular, and the fact that Win10 Mobile can be dual-booted and left in stand-by for several days compared to 6-7 hours in WOA sleep mode - not to mention the camera only working in Mobile - suggests the inclusion of cellular/UWP apps not to be a viable prospect.

Windows Defender/Security Center: As an Antivirus solution this has improved tremendously since 1903 - but is proving a major culprit in slowing down the whole desktop experience on such embedded devices even though is running natively. My first test at using NTLite was to remove most of these components, which was successful, albeit leaving Windows quite vulnerable if used irresponsibly. And there is no other ARM64 alternative.

Windows Updates: Right now they seldom work on WOA and continue to roll-back. I’ve had very limited success at installing them on 1903. Possibly I had more luck getting the green tick on earlier versions of WOA - or with Defender disabled. I will be doing some further testing on pre-injecting them, but if it fails then I guess we will have to just wipe and load Insider releases quite frequently - depending on how quickly NTLite can keep up-to-date with the changes - else incur further vulnerability.

Network support: For RPi perhaps there is a need for AD integration, being able to resolve hostnames on the network, RDPing to and from your embedded device. However, the Lumia 950 XL is quite isolated in terms of it’s single USB-C socket that, incidentally, has no working HDMI output, hence no real need for network support other than an Internet connection - a must - unless you plan to use your phone as a NAS drive controller or some such!

OneDrive & Bitlocker: For me, personally, OneDrive is the main reason to use Windows 10! They currently offer 6TB at a cheaper price than all competitors, and the app is pretty flawless nowadays. Unfortunately, it’s still x86 and requires a lot of resources. Right now I have a 400 GB SD card, and Bitlocker should work for removable drives and indeed the main OS drive - at least for the Pi3 - but not Lumia; the latter requires a wireless keyboard at boot time, which is not possible based on some limitations with the bootloader.

WSL2: virtualization isn’t working on the Lumia right now due to a lack of bios/features - but even on the Pi3 it will not upgrade beyond WSL1 on the latest Insider, so I think Windows Linux is a no-go right now in the ARM world.

Services & Security: there’s a lot I will be considering here in due course.

WIP

Automatic Unattended OOBE = working
Administrator account enabled/auto login = working
Windows Defender removal = working
Security Center removal = working
2 x

The_GTA
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:17 am
x 52
x 28

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by The_GTA » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:35 am

Windows Store apps:
> Which app(s) have you discovered in the store that you simply cannot live without?
Adblocker extensions for Micrososft Edge, Twitch livestreaming apps (gamestreams, MyTwitch, etc), myTube, NotepadX, WSL distributions, Wolfram Alpha.

> Would loss of the store be a deal breaker for you?
Yes, actually. Just my opinion.

Maybe provide both images, one with UWP and one without.

Windows Defender/Security Center:
No need for embedded security measures for tech savvy people like me.

Windows Updates:
Good point.

WSL2:
A lot of people consider WSL2 to be a successor of WSL1. I just consider it an alternative.
0 x

gilius
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:12 pm
x 10
x 45

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by gilius » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:17 pm

Thanks for the feedback - have posted some updates here:
https://discourse.pi64.win/t/windows-10 ... -wip/418/7

WSL1 is probably too slow for any serious practical use on WOA? How might the performance of a Linux app compare to say an x86 app? I doubt it could even access the graphics properly - how about gparted - can it modify WOA partitions through WSL1?

EDIT: how about Notepad++ as an alternative to the store app?
0 x

The_GTA
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:17 am
x 52
x 28

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by The_GTA » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:37 am

gilius wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:17 pm
Thanks for the feedback - have posted some updates here:
https://discourse.pi64.win/t/windows-10 ... -wip/418/7
You're welcome.
gilius wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:17 pm
WSL1 is probably too slow for any serious practical use on WOA? How might the performance of a Linux app compare to say an x86 app? I doubt it could even access the graphics properly - how about gparted - can it modify WOA partitions through WSL1?
WSL1 filesystem performance is known to be slower than regular Linux. But WSL2 is known to slow down global system performance: https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4468
So it is a mixed bag.
gilius wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:17 pm
EDIT: how about Notepad++ as an alternative to the store app?
I know that the userbase for WoA is really tiny so I do not want to drag you down creating a specialized WoA image. I might even try it out in December. Just saying that it might not be suited for every consumer use-case.
0 x

User avatar
Predator
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:23 am
Location: Spain
x 2

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by Predator » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:10 am

Can be installed in the Lumia 950 also?
0 x

gilius
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:12 pm
x 10
x 45

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by gilius » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:46 pm

Predator wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:10 am
Can be installed in the Lumia 950 also?
Yep! But the 950 has only half the CPU speed due to a problem with the "big" CPU not being utilized for some unknown reason. This problem is with any Windows 10 distro.
0 x

User avatar
Predator
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:23 am
Location: Spain
x 2

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by Predator » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:30 am

gilius wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:46 pm
Predator wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:10 am
Can be installed in the Lumia 950 also?
Yep! But the 950 has only half the CPU speed due to a problem with the "big" CPU not being utilized for some unknown reason. This problem is with any Windows 10 distro.
So, I will have the same result (about the CPU) with the Little version and the normal verison? I'm not sure which one I should install.
0 x

gilius
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:12 pm
x 10
x 45

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by gilius » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:25 pm

Maybe try both and compare the difference. Start with the full version using WOA Deployer then try the lite version after? You should really try to pick up a 950 XL if you can from the market place. Most people are trying to get rid of them in place of Android or iOS because they don't know what treasure they possess! :)
0 x

User avatar
Predator
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:23 am
Location: Spain
x 2

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by Predator » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:12 am

gilius wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:25 pm
Maybe try both and compare the difference. Start with the full version using WOA Deployer then try the lite version after? You should really try to pick up a 950 XL if you can from the market place. Most people are trying to get rid of them in place of Android or iOS because they don't know what treasure they possess! :)
OK, thank you. So, it will be a lot of diference between doing it with a 950 and a 950 XL?
0 x

gilius
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:12 pm
x 10
x 45

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by gilius » Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:31 pm

Predator wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:12 am
gilius wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:25 pm
Maybe try both and compare the difference. Start with the full version using WOA Deployer then try the lite version after? You should really try to pick up a 950 XL if you can from the market place. Most people are trying to get rid of them in place of Android or iOS because they don't know what treasure they possess! :)
OK, thank you. So, it will be a lot of diference between doing it with a 950 and a 950 XL?
Only that the 950 uses less than 50% CPU speed compared to 950 XL, and the WOALite deployment requires one alternative driver pack:
github.com/WOA-Project/Specifics-Talkman/tree/1912 instead of github.com/WOA-Project/Specifics-Cityman/tree/1912

And inside the following package additional drivers are taken from MSM8994-8992-NT-ARM64-Drivers-1912\msm8992 instead of MSM8994-8992-NT-ARM64-Drivers-1912\msm8994

However, when you perform an initial deployment with WOA Deployer then it will do everything automatically, including downloading and choosing the right drivers for your device.
0 x

User avatar
Predator
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:23 am
Location: Spain
x 2

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by Predator » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:36 pm

gilius wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:31 pm
Predator wrote: OK, thank you. So, it will be a lot of diference between doing it with a 950 and a 950 XL?
Only that the 950 uses less than 50% CPU speed compared to 950 XL, and the WOALite deployment requires one alternative driver pack:
github.com/WOA-Project/Specifics-Talkman/tree/1912 instead of github.com/WOA-Project/Specifics-Cityman/tree/1912

And inside the following package additional drivers are taken from MSM8994-8992-NT-ARM64-Drivers-1912\msm8992 instead of MSM8994-8992-NT-ARM64-Drivers-1912\msm8994

However, when you perform an initial deployment with WOA Deployer then it will do everything automatically, including downloading and choosing the right drivers for your device.
OK. That you say about the CPU usage… is it something like a bug? Would be fixed? Or is something inevitable?

50% sounds as too much diference in speed terms… Do the 950 runs the W10ARM too slowly or something like that?
0 x

gilius
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:12 pm
x 10
x 45

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by gilius » Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:34 am

It's a problem with Windows 10 using only the small cores and not the big core of the Snapdragon 808 CPU, so nothing to do with the WOA Deployer app.
0 x

pinback
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:35 pm
x 2

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by pinback » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:27 pm

Hey Gilius, how is this project going now? :)
0 x

gilius
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:12 pm
x 10
x 45

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by gilius » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:59 pm

I've had a break over the last week - but not before fixing the new Microsoft Edge sign-in problem - hope to release a new lite version soon.

To be honest it's quite close to being fully bare bones anyway minus the components that have been flagged up for protection. So after removing the final few it will just be a case of trying to remove all unnecessary drivers - for the sake of the Raspberry Pi more than anything - as WOALite on the Lumia 950 XL is already starting to feel quite speedy for the 3GB of RAM. Whereas full Win10 is really not practical on either device, again, due to RAM constraints.

BTW, the new Microsoft edge will need to be installed and run like this so as to avoid the black screen problem due to graphics acceleration:
MicrosoftEdgeSetupCanary.exe
del "%USERPROFILE%\desktop\Microsoft Edge Canary.lnk"
nircmd.exe shortcut "C:\Users\administrator\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Edge SxS\Application\msedge.exe" "~$folder.desktop$" "Microsoft Edge Canary" "--disable-gpu"

But you first need to create a user account and edit the above as it doesn't work under the admin account.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to automate that part via g:\connect.bat as net user requires some manual intervention in term of setting password to not require changing - probably a bug of sorts.

Again, I will update this in the release thread soon - but the CoronaVirus situation is kinda scary right now...

Lastly, there's a new version of FFmpeg with h.264 encoding:
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21A ... 05CA6CB7CC
1 x

gilius
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:12 pm
x 10
x 45

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by gilius » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:10 pm

BTW is there be any interest in booting from VHDX stored inside your phone data as opposed to splitting the partitions 8/18 GB between mobile and WOA? I think it can work. It uses the same boot manager and the performance seems unaffected. I'm unsure what the other advantages are though - you could maybe backup and restore the OS via drag and drop as well as move between devices potentially.
1 x

egodasa
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:33 am

Re: Windows 10 Lite for Rpi3 and Lumia 950XL (WIP!)

Post by egodasa » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:49 am

First, many thanks for You gillius for windows 10 lite. It works on my lumia 950 with good performance. This is better than windows 10 arm version.

But I've found some bugs.

A message "Your PC will automatically restart in one minute Windows 10" appear when I made copy paste text or when clipboard service are runnig. And then in 1 minutes My lumia goes black screen and I restart it with button combination (power + vol up).

And I'm very miss microsoft store apps (unigram, groove etc) and any other UWP.
Is there windows 10 lite x86 with microsoft store, phone and messaging capability?

I agree if windows update, windows defender and any other are stripped out.
(Sorry for my english :lol: )
0 x

Post Reply